Date: January 5, 2025
Source: Volodymyr Zelenskyy: Ukraine, War, Peace, Putin, Trump, NATO, and Freedom | Lex Fridman Podcast
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u321m25rKXc
Executive Summary
This interview provides deep insights into President Zelenskyy’s perspective on the war in Ukraine, his relationships with international leaders (particularly Trump and Putin), his views on peace negotiations, the role of NATO, and the challenges of fighting corruption and maintaining freedom in wartime. Zelenskyy emerges as a strong, pragmatic leader deeply committed to his country’s sovereignty, with a clear understanding of historical parallels and geopolitical power dynamics. He displays a nuanced view of potential paths to peace, emphasizing the necessity of a strong Ukraine and security guarantees as preconditions for successful negotiations. He is wary of a ceasefire that does not address core security issues, specifically citing the failure of past agreements.
Key Themes and Ideas
1. The Nature of the War and Putin’s Motivations
- Zelenskyy views Putin’s actions as a full-scale invasion with roots in historical patterns of aggression, comparing them to the rise of fascism and Nazism. He stresses it did not begin in 2022, but long before, with the world’s failure to recognize weaknesses and the division of European states.
- He believes Putin’s primary goal is to prevent Ukraine’s independence and development, aiming to restore Russian influence and control.
- Zelenskyy emphasizes that Putin does not love his people, and is willing to sacrifice them to fulfill his ambitions. He does not believe Putin’s justifications of the war as “loving” or “protecting” the Russian people.
- Quote: “What is his country? He happened to consider Ukraine, his country. What is his country?”
- Quote: ”…Putin doesn’t launch rockets to save money but to kill people.”
- Zelenskyy argues that Putin is fundamentally irrational. Quote: “He is actually deaf. Even if he speaks to you, he is deaf by his very nature.”
- Zelenskyy strongly believes that the goal of any negotiation with Russia should be to force Putin to stop the war, not to rely on any goodwill on his part.
2. The Importance of Strength and Security Guarantees
- Zelenskyy repeatedly emphasizes the need for a strong Ukraine as a prerequisite for any peace negotiations.
- He strongly advocates for NATO membership, even if partial, as a key security guarantee. He understands Trump’s reservations about NATO.
- He criticizes the failure of past security guarantees (Budapest Memorandum), highlighting the lack of real support when Russia violated Ukraine’s sovereignty. He notes the irony in the security guarantors not answering Ukraine’s calls for help or consultations when Russia first invaded.
- Quote: “The Budapest Memorandum, nuclear weapons, this is what we had. Ukraine used them for protection. This does not mean that someone attacked us. That doesn’t mean that we would have used it. We had that opportunity. These were our security guarantees.”
- He views NATO as defensive, not offensive, and not as an attack on Russia.
- He insists on a comprehensive security package, including weapons aid, sanctions, and NATO guarantees, which would be necessary after any ceasefire to prevent future Russian aggression. He believes these measures, and not simply a cease-fire, are what he needs for Trump to push Putin to actually stop the war.
- Quote: “We need to be in a strong position and not talk but end the war.”
3. Views on Potential Peace Negotiations
- Zelenskyy is open to dialogue and negotiations, but only from a position of strength. He believes any discussions without firm security guarantees would be futile and potentially dangerous.
- Quote: “One should always speak with someone who listens and you must speak when you know that this will benefit you bring peace and calm to the world, not the other way around.”
- He is wary of ceasefires offered by Russia, citing their past failures to uphold agreements, and views them as a tactic to buy time. He notes that the last ceasefire he negotiated in Normandy in 2019 failed, and that Putin simply stopped answering his calls. He states they began killing Ukrainians again within a month after the agreement.
- He believes that Trump has the will and the power to pressure Putin to end the war, but is wary of a deal that would leave Ukraine vulnerable and expose both him and Trump. He stated, quote: “I really count on him and I think that our people really count on him. He has enough power to pressure Putin not into wanting to stop it. No, he will not want to. To pressure him to actually stop it, that is the difference. Don’t rely on Putin’s will to stop. You won’t see it.”
- Zelenskyy states, regarding potential negotiations: “I will make it clear. So first of all, I think January 25th or some other day, well, you just call it January 25th and I don’t mind, it’s my birthday. And we sit down, first of all, with Trump. We agree with him on how we can stop the war, stop Putin. It is important for us to sit down with him.”
- He envisions a multi-stage negotiation process, where he first secures agreements with Trump and Europe before dealing with Russia. He does not want a three-way negotiation in which he feels Putin is seen as equally willing to talk as Ukraine is.
4. Relationship with Donald Trump
- Zelenskyy admires Trump’s strength and leadership qualities, noting his ability to connect with his base and project decisiveness. He states that Trump was stronger than both Biden and Kamala Harris. He believes that he, and Trump, share the position of ‘peace through strength’.
- Quote: “He was stronger. He was much more stronger than Kamala Harris. Biden first and then Kamala Harris. Yes. He showed that he can intellectually and physically.”
- He has had personal conversations with Trump, and feels that the former president has a unique influence over Putin. He emphasizes a need for a close working relationship, with open communication and access to truthful information about the situation in Ukraine and Russia.
- Zelenskyy hopes to meet with Trump on or around January 25th of 2025, and thinks it would be symbolic for Trump to be the first leader to fly into Kyiv by airplane.
- He is willing to come to Trump’s inauguration on January 20th, 2025, if invited, but he insists he cannot come without a personal invitation from Trump himself.
5. Internal Challenges: Corruption and Freedom
- Zelenskyy acknowledges the problem of corruption within Ukraine, but also emphasizes the sophisticated anti-corruption system that has been created. He points out that anti-corruption bodies are independent and that they have made significant progress, citing the jailing of prominent oligarchs.
- He rejects accusations that Ukraine is not fighting corruption and cites examples of how Ukraine is fighting corruption, but that not all ‘corruption’ is straightforward, for instance he discusses how his administration asked to use Ukrainian cargo planes to ferry US weapons to the Ukraine war zone but that US companies with American jets were chosen instead, at an additional cost, which he views as potential corruption by lobbyists.
- Quote: “In most cases, we did not receive money. We received weapons. And where we saw risks that something could be a weapon, we would slap everyone on the wrist.”
- He states that he cannot ignore the need to balance the demands of fighting a war with the preservation of freedom and democratic ideals. Martial law has curtailed some freedoms, but it’s a necessary consequence of war.
- He also states, with respect to holding elections, that they will be held as soon as possible after the war is over, and only after ensuring the safety of elections, with new voting technologies possibly needed to be introduced to ensure all Ukrainians can vote, both in Ukraine and abroad.
6. Personal Reflections
- Zelenskyy shared his own family history with respect to World War II, noting that his grandfather was a decorated soldier who fought against the Nazis. He explained that his grandfather never spoke of the war, but believed it was a great tragedy.
- He discusses what it was like to wake up on February 24th of 2022, when the Russian invasion began, and said it felt like it was “just unreal”.
- He said, quote: “At this moment, you are no longer a father. What happened to me, unfortunately, because I believe that this is, and not only do I believe I understand, especially now, that all of this is the most important thing because your country is your family. The strength is in your family and this is the most important thing.”
- He believes his real inheritance comes from the education and values instilled in him, not material possessions.
- He stated that his biggest motivation is the war and how to finish the war.
7. Other Leaders and Figures
- Elon Musk: Zelenskyy is grateful for Starlink, respecting him as an innovator and self-made man. He hopes Musk will continue to support Ukraine and is open to him visiting.
- Tucker Carlson: Zelenskyy does not feel that Tucker Carlson’s interview of Putin will bring the two sides closer. Quote: “You think that when you do interviews like Mr. Tucker who did an interview there that you’re about to make them friends. What does this have to do with friends? He is different. He’s simply different.”
- Lukashenko: Zelenskyy recounts a phone call with the Belarus President, in which he says Lukashenko apologized for the missiles launched from Belarusian territory but claimed he was not in charge of the launch, blaming Putin instead.
Key Facts & Figures
- 177 billion: Total aid approved by the US (Zelenskyy claims Ukraine has received less than half).
- 980,000: Size of the Ukrainian Army (largest in Europe, according to Zelenskyy).
- 200,000: Size of the French Army, second largest in Europe.
- 788,000: Estimated Russian casualties in Ukraine.
- 1 million: Artillery rounds provided by Europe to Ukraine.
- 3.7 million: Artillery rounds provided by North Korea to Russia.
- 8.5 million: Ukrainian refugees who have left the country since the war.
- 3,800: Estimated casualties of North Korean soldiers who are fighting in the Russian Army (out of 12,000 deployed).
- 20,000-30,000: Civilians who have been tortured and buried in Mariupol, according to journalists.